My wife laid a rule whenever visiting her relatives that no one would be talking about politics. Her US based relatives are all big Trump supporters, unable to have in depth policy discussions without resulting to insults, save her sister.
That's a hard one, considering my political background, and having written Donald Trump Explained, a Special Education Perspective of the Forty-fifth President detailing how an undiagnosed social and communication disorder impacted his ability to function as a typical adult should. My maternal uncle would no longer speak to me for over two years. Recently he asked one question, what was my book title about. My eldest sister's husband is completely down that conspiracy rabbit hole too, and is driving her and their kids nuts with his fascination. That means he is another relative I have to redirect, a skill I used frequently as a Sped teacher, but now as a MAGA familial whisperer. (hint: come armed with tons of sports and hunting talk)
My sister in law that I mentioned, is leaving her position as a NICU nurse, likely permanently as she refuses to get vaccinated. I am concerned that when she gets COVID (we all eventually will sadly) all her reasons that she decided based on Fox News lies, will be replaced with deep regrets, if she were to survive it. I just see it happening considering that she and her husband think its all made up, no big deal, and that the government can't be trusted.
Thanks for sharing your story. It made me think about how so many knew Trump would harm the country in terrible ways, but no one could have predicted it would lead to mass denial of life-saving vaccine in the middle of a pandemic that took the lives of hundreds of thousands of Americans.
Trump was likely surprised by the resistance to the vaccine, and then just went with it despite his own intolerance of being around sick people, knowing that is what it would take to keep donations rolling in bankrolling his inverted debt pyramid scheme.
We all know Trump can't stand someone coughing. Remember that time when one of his cronies, Mick Mulvaney tried to stop Trump from speaking by coughing? Trump didn't pick up on the obvious social cue, got upset, very upset that someone was coughing because coughing is gross. Yet, for all Trump's disgust for his own voters, he does know that supporting their needs is good for his bottom line. That is why he secretly got vaccinated. He believes in it 100%, but won't risk his money making machine.
First, I have to thank Michelangelo for putting this article out and including me in it, he has been a lifesaver over the past 5 years, truly. I was glad to be a part of it and thankful Alison made the call she did, which inspired me to call and here we are!
I can totally relate with you in regards to it being hard to not talk politics in social settings or family get togethers anymore. I was raised in a very political, union/teamsters family with a hippy John Lennon and Elton John listening Mom. My Grandma was as Teamster who dated her local Teamsters president/her boss (she had some very interesting stories) and was friends with the Hoffas, my Dad was a teamster and my husband is a UAW worker, and my Mom even ran for local office back in the 80s, unions and politics are in my blood, its my passion.
My parents taught me to always speak up, to always stand up for those who cannot speak for themselves and to be a kind person and to stand up to the bullies, wish everyone else was raised like that. We always talked politics amongst my family, my 2 siblings are just as passionate about politics as I am and we are all Progressives and decent human beings, like I thought most of my friends. They are not. Trump sure brought the ugly people to the surface and I cut them off, but not right away, only after I saw they were incapable of having a grown up and civil debate without name calling and personal insults with crazy sources, I always ask for sources so I can research them. I cut them off and haven't missed them.
The problem in my life is my husband and my son, both of whom WERE Democrats, Obama voting Democrats. My husband has always been a HUGE Bernie Sanders fan, as am I, but when he lost the nominee to Hillary, in a very shady way I think, we held our nose and voted for Hillary in 2016, we both couldn't stand trump back then. After Hillary beat out Bernie in 2016 it left a very bad taste in my husbands mouth, he cannot stand Hillary, quite frankly I am not her biggest fan either, but I knew trump would be a disaster. 2020 elections roll around and my husband wanted Bernie again and said if the DNC screwed him over he would vote for trump, I thought he was bullshitting me. He wasn't. He voted for trump. I didn't think he would, even as we waited in a long line to vote, but after we voted he admitted he voted for the monster. I was stunned, I have never been so letdown and ashamed of my husband as I was that day, I couldn't even look at him.
My 25 yr old son voted for Obama his very 1st time he could vote, it was a proud moment for me. My son is very into history and politics, I was STUNNED when he turned into a trumper, I never saw that one coming. Next thing I know my son has a big trump flag, which I would not let him hang outside my home, he had to keep that rag in his bedroom out of my sight. I know my son listens to a lot of pod casts, that fool Joe Rogan is one of them, yet he listens to the Young Turks, and still loves trump! Where did I go wrong...
Politics used to be a popular topic at my family get togethers, but a little over a year ago my son and brother got into a small tiff over trump and voices were raised and my husband came into the room and got involved, and he shouldn't have. Now, let me tell you, my husband HATES politics and would prefer we did not discuss it at all, 2 summers ago we had our annual summer party and I had to ban all talk of politics just to keep the peace. Anyway, when my husband got involved in the discussion with my son and brother it took a turn for the worse, voices got VERY loud and next thing I know my husband and brother are nose to nose! My brother, being more open-minded and kind hearted person like myself, walked away to avoid further conflict, he got in his car and left and hasn't been back or spoke to my husband since Sept 2020 and it kills me. Now that the holidays are coming around and we are all vaccinated, I want to get back to our regular holidays together and I don't know how I am going to pull it off. I would love to get these guys together, they used to be best friends!
My husband picked up a lot of trump bullshit at work in the auto plant, where you would think most of the workers would be Democrats. SO many of my husbands fellow workers (mainly the men) LOVE trump and to this day think trump really did win the election and we can't even talk about it! One of his buddies thinks the world is FLAT, he is into Q of course. I feel like these men are all so angry, they think "liberals are cunts" (those are their exact and disgusting words) and I don't understand it at all. I do wish the Dems would put more of an effort to get to the Unions and talk to the workers, too many of them have left the party. Back when Obama 1st ran he came to my husbands plant and shook his hand, and I tell you, that made a difference. Hillary didn't even bother to come to Michigan, and people noticed. NO Union worker should be voting republican, but that is another story for another day.
My husband refuses to listen to anything I say, he thinks I am the one who reads fake news and I feel like his manly ego can't take not knowing something that I know, he only became like this since trump, and mind you, we are getting ready to have our 25th wedding anniv on Oct 26th. He won't even watch the moderate Bill Maher anymore! My son will discuss politics, but he gets angry and LOUD and starts with his "fake news" and all the usual rhetoric that they spew and I have to walk away.
Trump brought out a side of people I wish I had never had to see. I have always had yard signs up during elections and never had problems, until about 5 yrs ago when I moved to trumpland. I had my Biden yard signs stolen and 1 was BURNT during the election and now I have some trumper who drives by my house and yells obscene crap and throws his 2 energy drink bottles out at the end of my 200 foot long driveway every day, these people are cruel, mean and ugly. I just put a camera at the end of the driveway hoping I can get his license plate number so I can return all the bottles he has tossed in my yard, and I have saved them all, lol. I see so many "Fuck Biden" signs around here (in the thumb of Michigan), there is one right across the street from the local High School!!!
My in-laws are trumpers as is my husbands brother, who is a cop, a cop who refuses to take the vaccine. I can't be around those people, they say racist shit and don't even realize it, I am embaressed for them. Thankfully my in-laws and husband and son got vaccinated, but those who are not vaccinated will not be welcome in my home. Holidays should be interesting and boring with no politics talk. I am almost tempted to tell my husband and son to go eat with their trump cult friends and I will go spend the holidays with my smart, kind, compassionate and like-minded family. I am so DONE with these awful trumpsters, DONE, I cut so many people off and I don't miss any of them or their insults. Although, they were good for a laugh over their stupidity. HOW CAN ANYONE THINK TRUMP IS A GOOD MAN, or EVEN SMART?!
I do at times wish for a spouse that likes to talk to me about my passion, politics, and have been tempted to find myself one. I do remind the trumpsters in my life that they are the tiny minority and that I am part of the MAJORITY. They really thought trump was going to win in 2020, boy did I have the last laugh when the Dems won it ALL! Seems I am always right when it comes to this kind of stuff, because I read and research and read some more. One quick example of me being right again was the cop who killed George Floyd, Derrek Chauvin. My son and husband swore up and down that the cop would not go to jail, that "that cop was doing his job and Floyd shouldn't have fought him", boy have we gotten into it BIGLY about that. Well, surprise surprise, I was RIGHT AGAIN, the dirty cop is in prison where he belongs. Of course the men here never talked about it again, just as I expected, just as they always do when I have been proven to be right, the clam up. The male ego sure can be a fragile and vile thing in SOME men, not my daddy or brother though! It sure feels good to be with the majority, doesn't it? Sure is a lot better then being part of the angry cult of propaganda, and boy are they angry and mean.
As John Lennon said "POWER TO THE PEOPLE" and "GIVE PEACE A CHANCE".
I am a conservative. Always have been. Always will be. I didn't vote for Trump because his economic policies as stated were terrible for economic growth. This was the king of debt after all, and he wanted to raise taxes on consumers/companies by raising tariffs.
I didn't vote for Hillary because I didn't trust her. I did however vote, third party. In 2018 I voted as straight Democrat as I could (It's Texas so not all races had a D) with zero boxes checked for an R. Same with 2020. That is a necessity when a party betrays its people, its Constitution and ethics.
You nailed why Hillary lost the middle in 2016 despite not "winning" the election with the popular vote. She wasn't approachable by the average Joe. Trump on the other hand, tapped into grievance politics, much like his 1930s and 40s German leader whose footsteps he followed in using racial animus and what's called white replacement theory, tapping into a primal fear. The working class fears minorities taking their jobs, guns, women, etc. It's not rational, but on an emotional level they are all very very much afraid of the changing world and US dynamics demographical change is finally pushing. It is also why Trump got a non-voting block to actually go out and vote--the white nationalist block.
"I am a Nationalist," says Trump. I believed him thoroughly. He is one. He knows that the word means Nazi, and he lives the mantra of create enemies, demonize them, and stoke fear. Fear is a highly effective tool to modify behavior.
Trump always did this. By dividing beauty pageant contestants into ugly and winners in the 1980s BEFORE the actual competition. Do you think these girls spoke out when he sexually assaulted them, walked in on them naked or did other disgusting things to them? No. Fear dictated their response. He did the same thing to the Republican Party, and is still doing it. Fear.
So how do we approach our loved ones when they primarily follow Trump based on psychology, motivated by being part of "winning," "patriotism," fear and other conditioned beliefs?
When they lie about what Trump has done, stop them by saying "fake news."
Seriously. Depending on the relationship you can amp up how you frame the "fake news" line. I would suggest just simply cutting it off by saying you don't listen to their fake news, yet here are some of my more toxic retorts:
"I will not be discussing your fake news you got from some college drop out millionaire on Fox News., whose lawyers argue no sane person would believe what they were saying to be as truth"
"Ben Shapiro is a paid crisis actor. Why would anyone listen to his opinion?"
"Quoting Fox News is like trying to pass off Wikipedia as a scholarly resource in a doctoral dissertation. Don't do it and expect anyone to respect you."
Yes these are pretty venomous responses, but considering there is currently no room for genuine political discussion with these friends and loved ones, is best to let them know you won't discuss nonsense with them.
With my wife's uncle, whom is educated and quite intelligent, I am consistent. I tell him that I love him and that he is currently incapable of acting like an adult if we are talking about politics. I label the behavior (acting like a child emotionally by insulting people when you have no valid argument is childish) and set the rules for future discourse (we won't discuss this until you are emotionally capable of bringing up valid information and acting with maturity).
But with either of my brother in laws, I won't go there because that relationship is different. Push either too much and they will never come around (while the uncle in law will).
The one married to my wife's sister only recently started talking to me after over five years after he started yelling at me on a family vacation about politics. I need to keep that relationship intact particularly now with COVID, as who knows if he or his wife would survive.
I have been slowly trying to come to grips with my brother and the fact that he is a devout Trump follower - something I didn't realize until maybe 6 months ago and also something I would never have thought possible. I am pretty sure he was trying to hide it from me.
He is smart, educated, successful... the sweetest, most caring person you would have ever hoped to meet. I have 5 siblings but he is the one I was closest to. I thought I knew him. But he is different now.
He spouts all of the Trump bullshit and worst of all he is anti-vaccine and also pretty much anti-medicine at this point too. He has an incurable form of cancer that is in remission but he has been warned it will only stay in remission for so long. He is also diabetic and a smoker. Yet he refuses to get the vaccine.
I don't get it. When he was diagnosed with cancer, he wanted to LIVE. That's all he wanted. And so he underwent all the recommended treatments, allowing doctors to flood his body with poison multiple times a week for months. So that he could LIVE. And it worked - his cancer is in remission. He was so grateful - we all were.
Now he hates doctors. And he has become mean. I have never seen my brother "mean". He insults my sister who is a nurse involved in a campaign to get high school students vaccinated in her state. He recently moved to Florida (of all places). He thinks nothing of coming into town from Florida and showing up at my 80 year-old mother's house maskless, unvaccinated. My sisters, mother and I don't understand him. We are so worried and heartbroken. His 3 sons are following him in his actions because they look up to him. My brother, his wife and kids are the only ones in our family not vaccinated. They are the only ones not able to see the damage Trump and the GOP have caused and continue to cause. It's so strange.
I have had to distance myself from him. He is not to come to my house until and unless he is vaccinated. I hardly talk to him on the phone anymore because I just don't want to hear the crap that he spews (which he ultimately will even if you try to change the subject). I have tried to convince him to wear a mask when he visits my mother. My sister (who lives with my Mom) monitors that.
It is a very, very painful situation. My brother and I have always been so close. But I just cannot be around him right now... for my safety, the safety of my family and for our emotional well-being. The last year and a half has been so difficult. We just don't want to hear all the crap anymore, especially from family.
Shannon, this is such a sad story. And as you describe, it's mystifying. He battled cancer, underwent treatment that is intense, with many side effects I'm sure.
Then he won't get vaccinated? This can only be attributed to being immersed in a cult. People sometimes don't take the analogy seriously, but it is a true cult in which people pledge devotion to a leader or ideology and will harm themselves for the cause.
You're so right. That's exactly how I see it... a cult. In fact I have been trying to read up on how to deal with family members who join a cult. There are no good answers... had a similar situation with a friend.. had to distance myself after seeing her awful posts on FB. Thank you for your comments. It is appreciated!
Sorry to hear about your brother, its amazing to see so many smart and educated people get duped and sucked into the cult. I feel like trump (I refuse to use a capital letter when using his name) brought out the ugliness and meaness of a lot of white men and made them very, very angry and distrustful. Since trump, my son and husband are a lot less trusting of gov't and the medical community, they say awful things about Dr Fauci. I feel like the trump men in my life are insulted when someone just might know something they do not, especially when a woman might know more. Sadly, trump made a lot of white men feel like they are less then, he made them victims, it makes me sick.
I have distanced myself from anyone who is not vaccinated, they are most certainly not welcome in my home. At least my husband and son are vaccinated, they are not all the way sucked into the cult. My husband and son are so worried that someone is going to come take their guns, which I could give a shit about. We live in a very rural area in the middle of nowhere, I even have a small handgun, I am ok with guns, just not ok with certain guns. I have had to shoot a coyote to stop it from attacking 1 of my dogs, I was glad to have a gun that day, whew!
Shannon, if it makes you feel any better, just remember that WE are the MAJORITY, the trump cult is a tiny fraction of society and I believe if the Dems ever get moving on holding trump accountable and all his crimes are exposed, the cult will dwindle with time. Its all in the Dems hands, they have the power to make trump a felon, and then he can never run for president again. I think the orange turd belongs in prison, it sure would set the tone and let people know that we will not have this autocratic BS here. If trump isn't held accountable, we will get a smarter version of him in the future and our democracy will tested again. We all need to make calls to Dem leadership and our state Dems to let them know that we expect accountability and to move it along.
I have recently had an argument with my SIL over a friend she wanted me to meet who was not vaccinated. When I balked at this, she got really angry at me and words were exchanged and she accused me of being a "bully"! I have never been accused of that and it was very upsetting to me.
I have a "friend" who I was very close to and had a lot of fun with. I thought I knew her until I started reading her Facebook page, which I can only describe as toxic. Full on Q anon, posts from Brietbart, and videos from disgusting sites like Bitchute, hateful anti-Biden stuff and general antivax stuff, with Fauci as demonic, etc. I had to take a step back. The last straw was on Jan 6 when she was describing the mob as "patriots" as I was chatting on line with her.
I really feel a sense of grief, as we are still in touch, but I cant bring myself to hang out with someone who's values are so different from mine. And it makes me sad.
The same happened to me shortly after the 2016 election with a long-time friend who now lived far away and who, for years, I communicated with online or by phone, and saw only every now and them. I thought I knew her, but I was horrified by what I saw on her Facebook page. I cut off ties completely. I wrote about it all at the time, link below.
I feel that Rump is a cult leader. I know registered Dems who voted for him and adore him. I don't get it and never will. The way he stirred up anger was reminiscent of Hitler's tactics in getting Germans to support his torture and extermination of Jewish people.
The bullies love to call everyone else bullies, I see that a lot with the trumpsters in my life. I did cut most of the trumpsters out, but I do live with 2 of them and its not easy.
Thank you Michelangelo. This has been a difficult year and it continues to bring different challenges as we await vaccines for my 7 year old girls. I think it is important that people like me have a place to connect with others who share our unique but not uncommon struggle.
Thank you Alison. You've been really generous over these past few years, expressing your feelings and sharing with others so that they don't feel alone. Thanks for doing that.
Thank you for everything. I still remember that day driving to work listening to you and making that decision to call. You have been an idol and you have helped me for so many years, just helping me to keep some sanity. You are a great person. Thanks for all you do!
Allison, my son and his wife are TFG cultists who pretend not to be when they are around me, “to keep the peace.” Thankfully, the truth is bearing fruit right before our eyes because they are both vaccinated while watching their unvaccinated friends either contract or succumb to the virus, as they live in South Miami. Their children have both had the virus. TFG is not as prevalent a force in their home, but they still are susceptible to the cultists who are everywhere down there. I wish you well with your co-parent, but...
Thanks as I told Michelangelo their father is vaccinated (with booster) and that's because we have a daughter with a metabolic condition that makes her high risk for severe illness should she get covid. But in all other ways he is still indoctrinated. We NEVER talk about Biden the way we did TFG but as Michelangelo wrote he does show himself when he gets mad and verbally assaults me for being a Democrat. The good news is I have moved away from him and we are working on figuring out the parenting thing. There really is no such thing as co parenting when you are dealing with a narcissist...
Hope your family is doing ok. My brother who is not part of that cult got sucked into the antivaxx movement. His wife is a NICU nurse at Kaiser. I don't talk to him anymore but I'm hoping that for the sake of innocent babies his wife is one of the thousands suspended without pay for refusing to get vaccinated.
Hang in there. Be the best mom and influence that you can be for your daughters and maybe they won’t grow to hate their father for calling their mom a “cunt” etc.
I've lost 4 decade old friendships over Trump. I cannot compromise my values and have no basis for associating with people who support destroying women's rights, homophobia, racism, denial of climate change and shoveling tax cuts to multimillionaires and billionaires. Life is short and I'm too old to tolerate MAGA.
I 100% get it, life is to short to be bothered with angry trumpsters who are being fed lie after lie, there is no talking to them, logic left them a long time ago. They won't even take the time to read or fact find for themselves and have zero interest in anything good Biden is doing for them, because they are clueless as to what Biden is doing because the fake news they get only cares about making Dems and Biden look bad. Its insane. I have tried to provide many good sources to the trumpsters I come across and then I ask them for their sources and of course they either deflect, or provide a source that is just a blog! I feel like a lot of the trumpsers, the older ones in particular, don't understand what a blog is or that an opinion piece is an opinion. Anyone who watches Tucker Carlson is to far gone to be saved.
The pandemic was the catalyst for my 55 year old brother to fall down the rabbit hole of QAnon and Trump. Prior to that, for his entire life, he was a left leaning, intelligent and accomplished person. He supported Bernie in 2016, but married a woman with conservative leanings and who had been raised in a religious cult. He has become unreachable, initially sharing link after link for YouTube videos and propaganda which could have easily been debunked. He actually went to the Capitol on 1/6, driving from the west coast because he refuses to wear a mask and so couldn’t fly. We hardly speak anymore, mostly because it breaks my heart (and my brain) that he is now flirting with militias and purchased an AR15. The rest of my small family are also trump supporters and I consider myself a “Qrphan”. I don’t have any confidence in our DOJ to expose the criminality of the last administration but also know even if they did, the hardcore supporters wouldn’t believe it anyways. A terrible time for our country and personally for my family.
I lost my father to the Trump cult, which has now also cost him his health as he also refuses to get the vaccine. A few weeks ago I texted him, as we don't talk on the phone at all anymore, and he told me he was recently released from the hospital after being there for weeks with COVID. My only response was "I'm sorry". I didn't want to beat a lame horse, but I really wanted to tell him that he's a loser for following Trump and all of his sycophantic rhetoric, but I was the bigger man and took the higher road. I'm so upset that I can't have the relationship I once had with him. I'm his only child and it kills me that he chose the path of living within a cult of personality.
I had one last Trump friend. She’s been my friend for 40+ years. Several years ago she got remarried to a Fox News junkie and I watched as she went down the rabbit hole. So for awhile we just banned politics. She and our other girlfriends from those days would come visit every summer and we did fine just talking everything but politics. I, too, learned how to steer convos elsewhere. But I noticed she was becoming more and more angry about things.
Fast forward to this year. She is a vaccine refusenik. I tried everything from reasonable convo to saying how sad it made me to anger. We told her she was not allowed to come to the gathering this year unless she was vaccinated. Still refused. Her original “reasoning” was the total off the wall Q crazy shit about tracking chips. Then she switched to saying she would get it once it was fully approved. Now she just flat out refuses with any straw conspiracy she can grab. Anyway I told her last week the story of my friend with cancer who can’t get into surgery because hospitals where she lives are full of unvaccinated Covid patients. I thought this might at least elicit sympathy because she herself was once a cancer patient. Nope. She’s pretty much gone so far down the crazy and angry hole I just can’t see a way forward and I just don’t see any of my old friend anymore. I told her I won’t ever see her again because refusal to get vaccinated is a red line for me in terms of getting together and certainly having anyone stay at my house. Haven’t heard from her since. Makes me quite sad, knowing she doesn’t have many years left. Anyway, that was the last straw. I do feel like I have had several years to process this and knowing in the back of my mind this was likely coming so maybe a bit easier for me than others. And we live in different states. So I am fortunately not in a position where I am forced to be around a Q-Anon nut job. Still makes me sad. She’s estranged herself from many people including her own daughter. Anyway that’s my story. Loved hearing others on your show and your continued updates on this newsletter about this very heart wrenching issue.
Chris, it's mind-boggling to hear a friend you thought you knew for years saying things that are completely divorced from reality and unhinged. She's lost for in the cult and you have to protect your own well-being, so it's the right decision.
Thanks for the comments on the segment on the show. It was a great discussion and a lot of people need to talk.
I'm dealing with it myself. We got together way back in 2003. I knew he was a Republican and he knew I was a Democrat. No big deal back then. In fact, he thought it was very cool that I was in college pursuing a degree in history because he was a Civil War buff. I graduated summa cum laude in three years with a double major and a music ed minor. Then went on to get a graduate degree in American history. Big bragging rights there for him. His woman had an MA in American history! He thought that was so cool and bragged on me all the time. I was an intellectual and I had picked him to be with me!
Then, Trump comes along...We don't talk anymore. I sleep in a different bedroom. I go on my own vacations and I go through days trying not to think about how this person I used to care about, talk to, and who used to be able to see both sides of an issue has turned into such a crazy person who insists on believing all these conspiracies. It's no longer cool that I know my history and can pull facts out of my head on the spot when someone asks me something. I'm a college-brainwashed liberal. Like that was a bad thing in 2003-2015? Where did my well-read, thinking, caring (for the most part), companion go?
I've never been in his face with this MAGA stuff either unless it somehow sloughs off on me, then I call him on it. Lots of people think because he's MAGA, that I am also and they don't mince their words around me until I let the wildcat loose on them. I can't take part in such ignorant discussions especially when these people just parrot things they've heard, but never researched or educated themselves on these subjects. I have and constantly do so. I love to read exclusively non-fiction. I know our Constitution and history very well and yet, those seem to be bad things now according to these self-proclaimed "hard driving Constitutionalists."
I think about leaving, but geez, we have a house, lots of stuff, etc...I just want the person who I used to love back. He's not a bad man. He's not abusive, he's responsible, and he was good to me in the past. Every once in a while, I see the guy he used to be, but it doesn't last long. I'll probably move away after I retire. That's how hard I've thought about it. I just hate that this one ridiculous individual has caused so much grief for people who were comfortable and having fun with being a little different from each other and now, causing an end to a once decent and happy relationship.
Michelangelo suggested that there’re some social support groups for spouses of Trump supporters in his “Secret Lives…” article. Plan to listen to his show but would love to find a support group. I’m terrible lonely and pretty heartbroken after a recent round with my husband. Thanks for any pointers.
Wise words Joanne. From your lips to the Dems ears! I am worried that they do not seem to be taking this as seriously as they should. I hope our loved ones will come around to the truth. It's all just so surreal to see people actually falling for all this bullshit and getting sucked into the conspiracy theories. When I say "conspiracy theory" to my brother he responds "OR Conspiracy Truth". Ugh...
Like you I am not okay with certain types of guns but am a gun owner. My family are all ranch people from the west. They had guns for a reason, we were taught how to use them (at a young age) and we were taught to use them safely. We were taught to respect them. My brother and I couldn't point a TOY gun at someone else or we would get punished. Most people don't have that education or respect for guns. I am all for stricter regulations when it comes to this.
You're right... we are the majority. Fingers crossed that our Democratic leaders will start acting like we are!!
Thank you for this discussion. It is helpful to commiserate and validate! I have been fortunate to have my family and friend group intact during the Trump era. I do have a close friend that is in the cult. It was quite upsetting to discover because we never discussed politics. The worst part, her and spouse live in a blue New England state that is sparsely populated and 95 percent white. It’s really brave to espouse conservative libertarian views while living and benefiting from blue state governance. Maybe try living in rural, red America.
I was pretty conservative until around 2014. Seeing 45** come down the pike as the future of the GOP sent me sprinting for the exits. My parents, who, over the course of time up til that point, hadn't been shy in saying they thought he was a repugnant joke, embraced him wholeheartedly as a candidate.
They suddenly didn't care about his sordid profligacy and philandering, his many failed businesses or his refusal to divest from those still standing.
He could literally do nothing wrong. He was being bullied for ~telling it like it is~, despite the numerous clarifications required for nearly everything he said. No matter how hateful his rhetoric, it was everyone else being uncivilized.
I hung in for a long time, hoping that forcing them to interact with someone who despises him but was previously the staunch party line following daughter they raised, might at some point give them pause.
We reached a compromise of no F*x when I was around in common areas like the kitchen, or politics at all when meeting for meals and such. They could never quite manage to not push those boundaries, and we haven't spoken directly in months.
I hate it, but I just hit my absolute limit of being able to coexist peacefully with them when suggestions that perhaps 45**'s non-policies wrt Covid were not helping were met with, "Well if that's what you think, then leave!" (They were/are, despite all the complaining, very vigilant about masking and distancing and the like, because where they live was very proactive about it, and I live close enough it made sense to lock down together so we could all keep an eye on each other. They're both vaccinated, though made a lot of noise about mask burning parties ~someday, then greeted me over the holidays saying they were sick of lies - implication being Biden hadn't *actually* won.)
Both I and one of my sisters live in Europe. The other 3 siblings, and our ailing 83 year old mother, are still in rural NY, PA or Tenn. They are full-throated Trumpists but actually their transformation predates Trump.
I tried this tactic: first, I asked them to name one time when they had changed their minds after learning something new, and negative, about Trump. Then I asked to think about something that Trump has done which they knew others to perceive as a transgression but they defended Trump. Now, write down what would it take to stop defending him - what would he have to do that would mean he passed some threshold of human decency?
Blank stares. Silence. Like asking a fish what life is like outside of water. “The Dems are even worse!” Not one agreed to play this game (note that I’m no water carrier for the Obama admin - I could talk for days about the faults (and pros))
It is a cult. 15 years of Fox-induced fear-mongering is a powerful drug.
Well my comment disappeared so I am posting it again in case anyone has some input into this plan I have. My sister and I have barely spoken since early 2017 when I learned she voted for Trump. In the few times since that I have spoken with her she has sung his praises, sees him as kind of a diamond in the rough, but otherwise very good for this country etc. When I pointed out the atrocities of his administration she would shut down and refuse to speak. A few weeks ago she reached out with a family update, so I got the impression she wanted to speak again. I told her I wanted to ask her two questions: 1) Was the election stolen; and 2) Was January 6 a tourist visit/ BLM/antifah? I was hoping for a "No" on both, but instead I got an "I don't know." I told her that she was denying an objective reality and it became another scene of "I refuse to discuss this." A couple days later I asked if she would be interested in doing family counseling via video. At first she resisted but now she is game, if I pay for it. Right now I'm running into problems with licensing as I am in NY and she lives elsewhere. But I see this as the only possible way for us to repair our relationship, through a neutral arbiter. I have no knowledge on how to deal with a delusional person so I need help.
I'd like to hear the thoughts of others but it does sound like she is willing to do something, which is a plus. I know little about family counseling in a situation like this. You have to be able to trust the counselor, so I would imagine a lot rests on having a good one.
My wife laid a rule whenever visiting her relatives that no one would be talking about politics. Her US based relatives are all big Trump supporters, unable to have in depth policy discussions without resulting to insults, save her sister.
That's a hard one, considering my political background, and having written Donald Trump Explained, a Special Education Perspective of the Forty-fifth President detailing how an undiagnosed social and communication disorder impacted his ability to function as a typical adult should. My maternal uncle would no longer speak to me for over two years. Recently he asked one question, what was my book title about. My eldest sister's husband is completely down that conspiracy rabbit hole too, and is driving her and their kids nuts with his fascination. That means he is another relative I have to redirect, a skill I used frequently as a Sped teacher, but now as a MAGA familial whisperer. (hint: come armed with tons of sports and hunting talk)
My sister in law that I mentioned, is leaving her position as a NICU nurse, likely permanently as she refuses to get vaccinated. I am concerned that when she gets COVID (we all eventually will sadly) all her reasons that she decided based on Fox News lies, will be replaced with deep regrets, if she were to survive it. I just see it happening considering that she and her husband think its all made up, no big deal, and that the government can't be trusted.
Thanks for sharing your story. It made me think about how so many knew Trump would harm the country in terrible ways, but no one could have predicted it would lead to mass denial of life-saving vaccine in the middle of a pandemic that took the lives of hundreds of thousands of Americans.
Trump was likely surprised by the resistance to the vaccine, and then just went with it despite his own intolerance of being around sick people, knowing that is what it would take to keep donations rolling in bankrolling his inverted debt pyramid scheme.
We all know Trump can't stand someone coughing. Remember that time when one of his cronies, Mick Mulvaney tried to stop Trump from speaking by coughing? Trump didn't pick up on the obvious social cue, got upset, very upset that someone was coughing because coughing is gross. Yet, for all Trump's disgust for his own voters, he does know that supporting their needs is good for his bottom line. That is why he secretly got vaccinated. He believes in it 100%, but won't risk his money making machine.
First, I have to thank Michelangelo for putting this article out and including me in it, he has been a lifesaver over the past 5 years, truly. I was glad to be a part of it and thankful Alison made the call she did, which inspired me to call and here we are!
I can totally relate with you in regards to it being hard to not talk politics in social settings or family get togethers anymore. I was raised in a very political, union/teamsters family with a hippy John Lennon and Elton John listening Mom. My Grandma was as Teamster who dated her local Teamsters president/her boss (she had some very interesting stories) and was friends with the Hoffas, my Dad was a teamster and my husband is a UAW worker, and my Mom even ran for local office back in the 80s, unions and politics are in my blood, its my passion.
My parents taught me to always speak up, to always stand up for those who cannot speak for themselves and to be a kind person and to stand up to the bullies, wish everyone else was raised like that. We always talked politics amongst my family, my 2 siblings are just as passionate about politics as I am and we are all Progressives and decent human beings, like I thought most of my friends. They are not. Trump sure brought the ugly people to the surface and I cut them off, but not right away, only after I saw they were incapable of having a grown up and civil debate without name calling and personal insults with crazy sources, I always ask for sources so I can research them. I cut them off and haven't missed them.
The problem in my life is my husband and my son, both of whom WERE Democrats, Obama voting Democrats. My husband has always been a HUGE Bernie Sanders fan, as am I, but when he lost the nominee to Hillary, in a very shady way I think, we held our nose and voted for Hillary in 2016, we both couldn't stand trump back then. After Hillary beat out Bernie in 2016 it left a very bad taste in my husbands mouth, he cannot stand Hillary, quite frankly I am not her biggest fan either, but I knew trump would be a disaster. 2020 elections roll around and my husband wanted Bernie again and said if the DNC screwed him over he would vote for trump, I thought he was bullshitting me. He wasn't. He voted for trump. I didn't think he would, even as we waited in a long line to vote, but after we voted he admitted he voted for the monster. I was stunned, I have never been so letdown and ashamed of my husband as I was that day, I couldn't even look at him.
My 25 yr old son voted for Obama his very 1st time he could vote, it was a proud moment for me. My son is very into history and politics, I was STUNNED when he turned into a trumper, I never saw that one coming. Next thing I know my son has a big trump flag, which I would not let him hang outside my home, he had to keep that rag in his bedroom out of my sight. I know my son listens to a lot of pod casts, that fool Joe Rogan is one of them, yet he listens to the Young Turks, and still loves trump! Where did I go wrong...
Politics used to be a popular topic at my family get togethers, but a little over a year ago my son and brother got into a small tiff over trump and voices were raised and my husband came into the room and got involved, and he shouldn't have. Now, let me tell you, my husband HATES politics and would prefer we did not discuss it at all, 2 summers ago we had our annual summer party and I had to ban all talk of politics just to keep the peace. Anyway, when my husband got involved in the discussion with my son and brother it took a turn for the worse, voices got VERY loud and next thing I know my husband and brother are nose to nose! My brother, being more open-minded and kind hearted person like myself, walked away to avoid further conflict, he got in his car and left and hasn't been back or spoke to my husband since Sept 2020 and it kills me. Now that the holidays are coming around and we are all vaccinated, I want to get back to our regular holidays together and I don't know how I am going to pull it off. I would love to get these guys together, they used to be best friends!
My husband picked up a lot of trump bullshit at work in the auto plant, where you would think most of the workers would be Democrats. SO many of my husbands fellow workers (mainly the men) LOVE trump and to this day think trump really did win the election and we can't even talk about it! One of his buddies thinks the world is FLAT, he is into Q of course. I feel like these men are all so angry, they think "liberals are cunts" (those are their exact and disgusting words) and I don't understand it at all. I do wish the Dems would put more of an effort to get to the Unions and talk to the workers, too many of them have left the party. Back when Obama 1st ran he came to my husbands plant and shook his hand, and I tell you, that made a difference. Hillary didn't even bother to come to Michigan, and people noticed. NO Union worker should be voting republican, but that is another story for another day.
My husband refuses to listen to anything I say, he thinks I am the one who reads fake news and I feel like his manly ego can't take not knowing something that I know, he only became like this since trump, and mind you, we are getting ready to have our 25th wedding anniv on Oct 26th. He won't even watch the moderate Bill Maher anymore! My son will discuss politics, but he gets angry and LOUD and starts with his "fake news" and all the usual rhetoric that they spew and I have to walk away.
Trump brought out a side of people I wish I had never had to see. I have always had yard signs up during elections and never had problems, until about 5 yrs ago when I moved to trumpland. I had my Biden yard signs stolen and 1 was BURNT during the election and now I have some trumper who drives by my house and yells obscene crap and throws his 2 energy drink bottles out at the end of my 200 foot long driveway every day, these people are cruel, mean and ugly. I just put a camera at the end of the driveway hoping I can get his license plate number so I can return all the bottles he has tossed in my yard, and I have saved them all, lol. I see so many "Fuck Biden" signs around here (in the thumb of Michigan), there is one right across the street from the local High School!!!
My in-laws are trumpers as is my husbands brother, who is a cop, a cop who refuses to take the vaccine. I can't be around those people, they say racist shit and don't even realize it, I am embaressed for them. Thankfully my in-laws and husband and son got vaccinated, but those who are not vaccinated will not be welcome in my home. Holidays should be interesting and boring with no politics talk. I am almost tempted to tell my husband and son to go eat with their trump cult friends and I will go spend the holidays with my smart, kind, compassionate and like-minded family. I am so DONE with these awful trumpsters, DONE, I cut so many people off and I don't miss any of them or their insults. Although, they were good for a laugh over their stupidity. HOW CAN ANYONE THINK TRUMP IS A GOOD MAN, or EVEN SMART?!
I do at times wish for a spouse that likes to talk to me about my passion, politics, and have been tempted to find myself one. I do remind the trumpsters in my life that they are the tiny minority and that I am part of the MAJORITY. They really thought trump was going to win in 2020, boy did I have the last laugh when the Dems won it ALL! Seems I am always right when it comes to this kind of stuff, because I read and research and read some more. One quick example of me being right again was the cop who killed George Floyd, Derrek Chauvin. My son and husband swore up and down that the cop would not go to jail, that "that cop was doing his job and Floyd shouldn't have fought him", boy have we gotten into it BIGLY about that. Well, surprise surprise, I was RIGHT AGAIN, the dirty cop is in prison where he belongs. Of course the men here never talked about it again, just as I expected, just as they always do when I have been proven to be right, the clam up. The male ego sure can be a fragile and vile thing in SOME men, not my daddy or brother though! It sure feels good to be with the majority, doesn't it? Sure is a lot better then being part of the angry cult of propaganda, and boy are they angry and mean.
As John Lennon said "POWER TO THE PEOPLE" and "GIVE PEACE A CHANCE".
Joanne, always great to hear from you've helped a lot of people in the same place.
There is a load to unpack there.
I am a conservative. Always have been. Always will be. I didn't vote for Trump because his economic policies as stated were terrible for economic growth. This was the king of debt after all, and he wanted to raise taxes on consumers/companies by raising tariffs.
I didn't vote for Hillary because I didn't trust her. I did however vote, third party. In 2018 I voted as straight Democrat as I could (It's Texas so not all races had a D) with zero boxes checked for an R. Same with 2020. That is a necessity when a party betrays its people, its Constitution and ethics.
You nailed why Hillary lost the middle in 2016 despite not "winning" the election with the popular vote. She wasn't approachable by the average Joe. Trump on the other hand, tapped into grievance politics, much like his 1930s and 40s German leader whose footsteps he followed in using racial animus and what's called white replacement theory, tapping into a primal fear. The working class fears minorities taking their jobs, guns, women, etc. It's not rational, but on an emotional level they are all very very much afraid of the changing world and US dynamics demographical change is finally pushing. It is also why Trump got a non-voting block to actually go out and vote--the white nationalist block.
"I am a Nationalist," says Trump. I believed him thoroughly. He is one. He knows that the word means Nazi, and he lives the mantra of create enemies, demonize them, and stoke fear. Fear is a highly effective tool to modify behavior.
Trump always did this. By dividing beauty pageant contestants into ugly and winners in the 1980s BEFORE the actual competition. Do you think these girls spoke out when he sexually assaulted them, walked in on them naked or did other disgusting things to them? No. Fear dictated their response. He did the same thing to the Republican Party, and is still doing it. Fear.
So how do we approach our loved ones when they primarily follow Trump based on psychology, motivated by being part of "winning," "patriotism," fear and other conditioned beliefs?
When they lie about what Trump has done, stop them by saying "fake news."
Seriously. Depending on the relationship you can amp up how you frame the "fake news" line. I would suggest just simply cutting it off by saying you don't listen to their fake news, yet here are some of my more toxic retorts:
"I will not be discussing your fake news you got from some college drop out millionaire on Fox News., whose lawyers argue no sane person would believe what they were saying to be as truth"
"Ben Shapiro is a paid crisis actor. Why would anyone listen to his opinion?"
"Quoting Fox News is like trying to pass off Wikipedia as a scholarly resource in a doctoral dissertation. Don't do it and expect anyone to respect you."
Yes these are pretty venomous responses, but considering there is currently no room for genuine political discussion with these friends and loved ones, is best to let them know you won't discuss nonsense with them.
With my wife's uncle, whom is educated and quite intelligent, I am consistent. I tell him that I love him and that he is currently incapable of acting like an adult if we are talking about politics. I label the behavior (acting like a child emotionally by insulting people when you have no valid argument is childish) and set the rules for future discourse (we won't discuss this until you are emotionally capable of bringing up valid information and acting with maturity).
But with either of my brother in laws, I won't go there because that relationship is different. Push either too much and they will never come around (while the uncle in law will).
The one married to my wife's sister only recently started talking to me after over five years after he started yelling at me on a family vacation about politics. I need to keep that relationship intact particularly now with COVID, as who knows if he or his wife would survive.
I love your witty and accurate retorts. I want to post them to Twitter but wish to give you credit. What is your handle?
I have been slowly trying to come to grips with my brother and the fact that he is a devout Trump follower - something I didn't realize until maybe 6 months ago and also something I would never have thought possible. I am pretty sure he was trying to hide it from me.
He is smart, educated, successful... the sweetest, most caring person you would have ever hoped to meet. I have 5 siblings but he is the one I was closest to. I thought I knew him. But he is different now.
He spouts all of the Trump bullshit and worst of all he is anti-vaccine and also pretty much anti-medicine at this point too. He has an incurable form of cancer that is in remission but he has been warned it will only stay in remission for so long. He is also diabetic and a smoker. Yet he refuses to get the vaccine.
I don't get it. When he was diagnosed with cancer, he wanted to LIVE. That's all he wanted. And so he underwent all the recommended treatments, allowing doctors to flood his body with poison multiple times a week for months. So that he could LIVE. And it worked - his cancer is in remission. He was so grateful - we all were.
Now he hates doctors. And he has become mean. I have never seen my brother "mean". He insults my sister who is a nurse involved in a campaign to get high school students vaccinated in her state. He recently moved to Florida (of all places). He thinks nothing of coming into town from Florida and showing up at my 80 year-old mother's house maskless, unvaccinated. My sisters, mother and I don't understand him. We are so worried and heartbroken. His 3 sons are following him in his actions because they look up to him. My brother, his wife and kids are the only ones in our family not vaccinated. They are the only ones not able to see the damage Trump and the GOP have caused and continue to cause. It's so strange.
I have had to distance myself from him. He is not to come to my house until and unless he is vaccinated. I hardly talk to him on the phone anymore because I just don't want to hear the crap that he spews (which he ultimately will even if you try to change the subject). I have tried to convince him to wear a mask when he visits my mother. My sister (who lives with my Mom) monitors that.
It is a very, very painful situation. My brother and I have always been so close. But I just cannot be around him right now... for my safety, the safety of my family and for our emotional well-being. The last year and a half has been so difficult. We just don't want to hear all the crap anymore, especially from family.
Shannon, this is such a sad story. And as you describe, it's mystifying. He battled cancer, underwent treatment that is intense, with many side effects I'm sure.
Then he won't get vaccinated? This can only be attributed to being immersed in a cult. People sometimes don't take the analogy seriously, but it is a true cult in which people pledge devotion to a leader or ideology and will harm themselves for the cause.
You're so right. That's exactly how I see it... a cult. In fact I have been trying to read up on how to deal with family members who join a cult. There are no good answers... had a similar situation with a friend.. had to distance myself after seeing her awful posts on FB. Thank you for your comments. It is appreciated!
This really sad to read. I hope that your brother realizes one day how wrong he is.
Thank you ❤
Sorry to hear about your brother, its amazing to see so many smart and educated people get duped and sucked into the cult. I feel like trump (I refuse to use a capital letter when using his name) brought out the ugliness and meaness of a lot of white men and made them very, very angry and distrustful. Since trump, my son and husband are a lot less trusting of gov't and the medical community, they say awful things about Dr Fauci. I feel like the trump men in my life are insulted when someone just might know something they do not, especially when a woman might know more. Sadly, trump made a lot of white men feel like they are less then, he made them victims, it makes me sick.
I have distanced myself from anyone who is not vaccinated, they are most certainly not welcome in my home. At least my husband and son are vaccinated, they are not all the way sucked into the cult. My husband and son are so worried that someone is going to come take their guns, which I could give a shit about. We live in a very rural area in the middle of nowhere, I even have a small handgun, I am ok with guns, just not ok with certain guns. I have had to shoot a coyote to stop it from attacking 1 of my dogs, I was glad to have a gun that day, whew!
Shannon, if it makes you feel any better, just remember that WE are the MAJORITY, the trump cult is a tiny fraction of society and I believe if the Dems ever get moving on holding trump accountable and all his crimes are exposed, the cult will dwindle with time. Its all in the Dems hands, they have the power to make trump a felon, and then he can never run for president again. I think the orange turd belongs in prison, it sure would set the tone and let people know that we will not have this autocratic BS here. If trump isn't held accountable, we will get a smarter version of him in the future and our democracy will tested again. We all need to make calls to Dem leadership and our state Dems to let them know that we expect accountability and to move it along.
I have recently had an argument with my SIL over a friend she wanted me to meet who was not vaccinated. When I balked at this, she got really angry at me and words were exchanged and she accused me of being a "bully"! I have never been accused of that and it was very upsetting to me.
I have a "friend" who I was very close to and had a lot of fun with. I thought I knew her until I started reading her Facebook page, which I can only describe as toxic. Full on Q anon, posts from Brietbart, and videos from disgusting sites like Bitchute, hateful anti-Biden stuff and general antivax stuff, with Fauci as demonic, etc. I had to take a step back. The last straw was on Jan 6 when she was describing the mob as "patriots" as I was chatting on line with her.
I really feel a sense of grief, as we are still in touch, but I cant bring myself to hang out with someone who's values are so different from mine. And it makes me sad.
The same happened to me shortly after the 2016 election with a long-time friend who now lived far away and who, for years, I communicated with online or by phone, and saw only every now and them. I thought I knew her, but I was horrified by what I saw on her Facebook page. I cut off ties completely. I wrote about it all at the time, link below.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/we-cant-be-friends-because-you-voted-for-donald-trump_n_584ee562e4b04c8e2bb0c7d8
I feel that Rump is a cult leader. I know registered Dems who voted for him and adore him. I don't get it and never will. The way he stirred up anger was reminiscent of Hitler's tactics in getting Germans to support his torture and extermination of Jewish people.
The bullies love to call everyone else bullies, I see that a lot with the trumpsters in my life. I did cut most of the trumpsters out, but I do live with 2 of them and its not easy.
It's so sad. We are loved ones in so many different ways this last year and a half.
Meant to say losing loved ones..
Thank you Michelangelo. This has been a difficult year and it continues to bring different challenges as we await vaccines for my 7 year old girls. I think it is important that people like me have a place to connect with others who share our unique but not uncommon struggle.
I'm here to chat with anyone who wants to talk.
Thank you Alison. You've been really generous over these past few years, expressing your feelings and sharing with others so that they don't feel alone. Thanks for doing that.
Thank you for everything. I still remember that day driving to work listening to you and making that decision to call. You have been an idol and you have helped me for so many years, just helping me to keep some sanity. You are a great person. Thanks for all you do!
Allison, my son and his wife are TFG cultists who pretend not to be when they are around me, “to keep the peace.” Thankfully, the truth is bearing fruit right before our eyes because they are both vaccinated while watching their unvaccinated friends either contract or succumb to the virus, as they live in South Miami. Their children have both had the virus. TFG is not as prevalent a force in their home, but they still are susceptible to the cultists who are everywhere down there. I wish you well with your co-parent, but...
Thanks as I told Michelangelo their father is vaccinated (with booster) and that's because we have a daughter with a metabolic condition that makes her high risk for severe illness should she get covid. But in all other ways he is still indoctrinated. We NEVER talk about Biden the way we did TFG but as Michelangelo wrote he does show himself when he gets mad and verbally assaults me for being a Democrat. The good news is I have moved away from him and we are working on figuring out the parenting thing. There really is no such thing as co parenting when you are dealing with a narcissist...
Hope your family is doing ok. My brother who is not part of that cult got sucked into the antivaxx movement. His wife is a NICU nurse at Kaiser. I don't talk to him anymore but I'm hoping that for the sake of innocent babies his wife is one of the thousands suspended without pay for refusing to get vaccinated.
Hang in there. Be the best mom and influence that you can be for your daughters and maybe they won’t grow to hate their father for calling their mom a “cunt” etc.
Ty. 🙏
I've lost 4 decade old friendships over Trump. I cannot compromise my values and have no basis for associating with people who support destroying women's rights, homophobia, racism, denial of climate change and shoveling tax cuts to multimillionaires and billionaires. Life is short and I'm too old to tolerate MAGA.
That's exactly it... I won't compromise my values either. I have no patience with people who spew hatred and I don't want them in my life.
I 100% get it, life is to short to be bothered with angry trumpsters who are being fed lie after lie, there is no talking to them, logic left them a long time ago. They won't even take the time to read or fact find for themselves and have zero interest in anything good Biden is doing for them, because they are clueless as to what Biden is doing because the fake news they get only cares about making Dems and Biden look bad. Its insane. I have tried to provide many good sources to the trumpsters I come across and then I ask them for their sources and of course they either deflect, or provide a source that is just a blog! I feel like a lot of the trumpsers, the older ones in particular, don't understand what a blog is or that an opinion piece is an opinion. Anyone who watches Tucker Carlson is to far gone to be saved.
Agree with you 100%, Joanne.
The pandemic was the catalyst for my 55 year old brother to fall down the rabbit hole of QAnon and Trump. Prior to that, for his entire life, he was a left leaning, intelligent and accomplished person. He supported Bernie in 2016, but married a woman with conservative leanings and who had been raised in a religious cult. He has become unreachable, initially sharing link after link for YouTube videos and propaganda which could have easily been debunked. He actually went to the Capitol on 1/6, driving from the west coast because he refuses to wear a mask and so couldn’t fly. We hardly speak anymore, mostly because it breaks my heart (and my brain) that he is now flirting with militias and purchased an AR15. The rest of my small family are also trump supporters and I consider myself a “Qrphan”. I don’t have any confidence in our DOJ to expose the criminality of the last administration but also know even if they did, the hardcore supporters wouldn’t believe it anyways. A terrible time for our country and personally for my family.
I lost my father to the Trump cult, which has now also cost him his health as he also refuses to get the vaccine. A few weeks ago I texted him, as we don't talk on the phone at all anymore, and he told me he was recently released from the hospital after being there for weeks with COVID. My only response was "I'm sorry". I didn't want to beat a lame horse, but I really wanted to tell him that he's a loser for following Trump and all of his sycophantic rhetoric, but I was the bigger man and took the higher road. I'm so upset that I can't have the relationship I once had with him. I'm his only child and it kills me that he chose the path of living within a cult of personality.
I had one last Trump friend. She’s been my friend for 40+ years. Several years ago she got remarried to a Fox News junkie and I watched as she went down the rabbit hole. So for awhile we just banned politics. She and our other girlfriends from those days would come visit every summer and we did fine just talking everything but politics. I, too, learned how to steer convos elsewhere. But I noticed she was becoming more and more angry about things.
Fast forward to this year. She is a vaccine refusenik. I tried everything from reasonable convo to saying how sad it made me to anger. We told her she was not allowed to come to the gathering this year unless she was vaccinated. Still refused. Her original “reasoning” was the total off the wall Q crazy shit about tracking chips. Then she switched to saying she would get it once it was fully approved. Now she just flat out refuses with any straw conspiracy she can grab. Anyway I told her last week the story of my friend with cancer who can’t get into surgery because hospitals where she lives are full of unvaccinated Covid patients. I thought this might at least elicit sympathy because she herself was once a cancer patient. Nope. She’s pretty much gone so far down the crazy and angry hole I just can’t see a way forward and I just don’t see any of my old friend anymore. I told her I won’t ever see her again because refusal to get vaccinated is a red line for me in terms of getting together and certainly having anyone stay at my house. Haven’t heard from her since. Makes me quite sad, knowing she doesn’t have many years left. Anyway, that was the last straw. I do feel like I have had several years to process this and knowing in the back of my mind this was likely coming so maybe a bit easier for me than others. And we live in different states. So I am fortunately not in a position where I am forced to be around a Q-Anon nut job. Still makes me sad. She’s estranged herself from many people including her own daughter. Anyway that’s my story. Loved hearing others on your show and your continued updates on this newsletter about this very heart wrenching issue.
Chris, it's mind-boggling to hear a friend you thought you knew for years saying things that are completely divorced from reality and unhinged. She's lost for in the cult and you have to protect your own well-being, so it's the right decision.
Thanks for the comments on the segment on the show. It was a great discussion and a lot of people need to talk.
I'm dealing with it myself. We got together way back in 2003. I knew he was a Republican and he knew I was a Democrat. No big deal back then. In fact, he thought it was very cool that I was in college pursuing a degree in history because he was a Civil War buff. I graduated summa cum laude in three years with a double major and a music ed minor. Then went on to get a graduate degree in American history. Big bragging rights there for him. His woman had an MA in American history! He thought that was so cool and bragged on me all the time. I was an intellectual and I had picked him to be with me!
Then, Trump comes along...We don't talk anymore. I sleep in a different bedroom. I go on my own vacations and I go through days trying not to think about how this person I used to care about, talk to, and who used to be able to see both sides of an issue has turned into such a crazy person who insists on believing all these conspiracies. It's no longer cool that I know my history and can pull facts out of my head on the spot when someone asks me something. I'm a college-brainwashed liberal. Like that was a bad thing in 2003-2015? Where did my well-read, thinking, caring (for the most part), companion go?
I've never been in his face with this MAGA stuff either unless it somehow sloughs off on me, then I call him on it. Lots of people think because he's MAGA, that I am also and they don't mince their words around me until I let the wildcat loose on them. I can't take part in such ignorant discussions especially when these people just parrot things they've heard, but never researched or educated themselves on these subjects. I have and constantly do so. I love to read exclusively non-fiction. I know our Constitution and history very well and yet, those seem to be bad things now according to these self-proclaimed "hard driving Constitutionalists."
I think about leaving, but geez, we have a house, lots of stuff, etc...I just want the person who I used to love back. He's not a bad man. He's not abusive, he's responsible, and he was good to me in the past. Every once in a while, I see the guy he used to be, but it doesn't last long. I'll probably move away after I retire. That's how hard I've thought about it. I just hate that this one ridiculous individual has caused so much grief for people who were comfortable and having fun with being a little different from each other and now, causing an end to a once decent and happy relationship.
Michelangelo suggested that there’re some social support groups for spouses of Trump supporters in his “Secret Lives…” article. Plan to listen to his show but would love to find a support group. I’m terrible lonely and pretty heartbroken after a recent round with my husband. Thanks for any pointers.
Wise words Joanne. From your lips to the Dems ears! I am worried that they do not seem to be taking this as seriously as they should. I hope our loved ones will come around to the truth. It's all just so surreal to see people actually falling for all this bullshit and getting sucked into the conspiracy theories. When I say "conspiracy theory" to my brother he responds "OR Conspiracy Truth". Ugh...
Like you I am not okay with certain types of guns but am a gun owner. My family are all ranch people from the west. They had guns for a reason, we were taught how to use them (at a young age) and we were taught to use them safely. We were taught to respect them. My brother and I couldn't point a TOY gun at someone else or we would get punished. Most people don't have that education or respect for guns. I am all for stricter regulations when it comes to this.
You're right... we are the majority. Fingers crossed that our Democratic leaders will start acting like we are!!
Thank you for this discussion. It is helpful to commiserate and validate! I have been fortunate to have my family and friend group intact during the Trump era. I do have a close friend that is in the cult. It was quite upsetting to discover because we never discussed politics. The worst part, her and spouse live in a blue New England state that is sparsely populated and 95 percent white. It’s really brave to espouse conservative libertarian views while living and benefiting from blue state governance. Maybe try living in rural, red America.
I was pretty conservative until around 2014. Seeing 45** come down the pike as the future of the GOP sent me sprinting for the exits. My parents, who, over the course of time up til that point, hadn't been shy in saying they thought he was a repugnant joke, embraced him wholeheartedly as a candidate.
They suddenly didn't care about his sordid profligacy and philandering, his many failed businesses or his refusal to divest from those still standing.
He could literally do nothing wrong. He was being bullied for ~telling it like it is~, despite the numerous clarifications required for nearly everything he said. No matter how hateful his rhetoric, it was everyone else being uncivilized.
I hung in for a long time, hoping that forcing them to interact with someone who despises him but was previously the staunch party line following daughter they raised, might at some point give them pause.
We reached a compromise of no F*x when I was around in common areas like the kitchen, or politics at all when meeting for meals and such. They could never quite manage to not push those boundaries, and we haven't spoken directly in months.
I hate it, but I just hit my absolute limit of being able to coexist peacefully with them when suggestions that perhaps 45**'s non-policies wrt Covid were not helping were met with, "Well if that's what you think, then leave!" (They were/are, despite all the complaining, very vigilant about masking and distancing and the like, because where they live was very proactive about it, and I live close enough it made sense to lock down together so we could all keep an eye on each other. They're both vaccinated, though made a lot of noise about mask burning parties ~someday, then greeted me over the holidays saying they were sick of lies - implication being Biden hadn't *actually* won.)
So I left. ✌
Both I and one of my sisters live in Europe. The other 3 siblings, and our ailing 83 year old mother, are still in rural NY, PA or Tenn. They are full-throated Trumpists but actually their transformation predates Trump.
I tried this tactic: first, I asked them to name one time when they had changed their minds after learning something new, and negative, about Trump. Then I asked to think about something that Trump has done which they knew others to perceive as a transgression but they defended Trump. Now, write down what would it take to stop defending him - what would he have to do that would mean he passed some threshold of human decency?
Blank stares. Silence. Like asking a fish what life is like outside of water. “The Dems are even worse!” Not one agreed to play this game (note that I’m no water carrier for the Obama admin - I could talk for days about the faults (and pros))
It is a cult. 15 years of Fox-induced fear-mongering is a powerful drug.
Well my comment disappeared so I am posting it again in case anyone has some input into this plan I have. My sister and I have barely spoken since early 2017 when I learned she voted for Trump. In the few times since that I have spoken with her she has sung his praises, sees him as kind of a diamond in the rough, but otherwise very good for this country etc. When I pointed out the atrocities of his administration she would shut down and refuse to speak. A few weeks ago she reached out with a family update, so I got the impression she wanted to speak again. I told her I wanted to ask her two questions: 1) Was the election stolen; and 2) Was January 6 a tourist visit/ BLM/antifah? I was hoping for a "No" on both, but instead I got an "I don't know." I told her that she was denying an objective reality and it became another scene of "I refuse to discuss this." A couple days later I asked if she would be interested in doing family counseling via video. At first she resisted but now she is game, if I pay for it. Right now I'm running into problems with licensing as I am in NY and she lives elsewhere. But I see this as the only possible way for us to repair our relationship, through a neutral arbiter. I have no knowledge on how to deal with a delusional person so I need help.
I'd like to hear the thoughts of others but it does sound like she is willing to do something, which is a plus. I know little about family counseling in a situation like this. You have to be able to trust the counselor, so I would imagine a lot rests on having a good one.